Wikidata:Property proposal/population by ethnic group

population by native language

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Place

   Done: population by native language (P12712) (Talk and documentation)

Description	Part of a larger population isolated for statistical analysis
Data type	Quantity
Allowed values	positive integers and 0
Example 1	⟨ Galda de Jos (Q16425261)    ⟩ Sandbox-Quantity (P1106) ⟨ 278 ⟩ native language (P103) ⟨ Hungarian (Q9067)    ⟩ source: National Institute of Statistics (Q6973708) https://www.recensamantromania.ro/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Tabel-2.02.1-si-Tabel-2.02.2.xlsx
Example 2	⟨ Baranya County (Q186195)    ⟩ Sandbox-Quantity (P1106) ⟨ 5438 ⟩ native language (P103) ⟨ Croatian (Q6654)    ⟩ source: Hungarian Central Statistical Office (Q1125966) https://nepszamlalas2022.ksh.hu/adatbazis/#/table/WBS009
Example 3	⟨ Pristina (Q25270)    ⟩ Sandbox-Quantity (P1106) ⟨ 426 ⟩ native language (P103) ⟨ Macedonian (Q9296)    ⟩ (from previous proposals)
See also	population (P1082), male population (P1540), female population (P1539), rural population (P6344)

Motivation

Ethnic group is a very important linguistic and cultural property, strongly related to first language (Q36870) spoken. Even Wikidata is available in multiple languages. Many statistical offices publish data for this property.

The usage for this property would be the same as for population (P1082), with mandatory qualifier native language (P103).

I think it is more important and more relevant to store this information on Commons in json. --Bean49 (talk) 12:35, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

• Previous discussion: Wikidata:Property proposal/subpopulation, Wikidata:Property proposal/subpopulation 2, Wikidata:Property proposal/subpopulation 3 which contain three different proposed models about such info.--GZWDer (talk) 15:09, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

  None of them opposes this proposal. Many concludes to this. My point is, that this criterion is much more important than the others, and it shouldn't be dropped because of the others. We have tons of population by ethnic group data and we can't share them between Wikipedias, and we have to store them in template parameter values. Bean49 (talk) 20:25, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

  The property wouldn't generate the data. The data exist as we speak, but we don't have the possibility to store them. It doesn't help the situation saying that there are infinitely more criteria. I'm saying that this is an important data currently stored in template parameter values, and it needs a property to be able to store it in Wikidata. Bean49 (talk) 01:19, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

  @GZWDer:, would you like to give your opinion? Regards, ZI Jony ^(Talk) 06:08, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

•  Support, an important property for localities.--Arbnos (talk) 15:08, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
• @Bean49:, could you please fulfil the minimum requirements, at least 3 example! Regards, ZI Jony ^(Talk) 05:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  @ZI Jony: Thank you for your attention. I completed the 3 examples. Regards, Bean49 (talk) 14:43, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

•  Oppose No serious statistician would ever count people by "ethnic group", it is too loosely defined. The best approximation to counting immigrants groups would be to group people by their country of origin and count their children as well. Infrastruktur (talk) 13:20, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  You are in mistake. Several Statistical Offices of countries collect and publish this data, it is a very important indicator of inhabitants. See examples, and there are plenty more. Again, the data exist from serious official sources, we only want to store it, to be able to show, and not to store it in template parameter values. Bean49 (talk) 13:27, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

That's a logical fallacy and a strawman. Just because a group of people do or say something does not mean it has any merit whatsoever. Infrastruktur (talk) 13:50, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

It is official country statistical office against your opinion. I would like to store official data. What is wrong with it? Bean49 (talk) 13:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

It is not an opinion, it is basic logic and basic statistics. If the method used for collecting the data is flawed then so is the data. Infrastruktur (talk) 14:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• This shouldn't be discussion about the nature of the data, this should be discussion about how to store official data of country statistical offices, not one, but many. This property would be the most appropriate way. Thanks for any support, and appreciate if some one creates it. Bean49 (talk) 15:13, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

By that same logic should we store craniometry data as well? I'm sure Paul Broca would be delighted. Infrastruktur (talk) 16:18, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bean49:, could you please clarify the comments above by @Infrastruktur:. Regards, ZI Jony ^(Talk) 06:39, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

@ZI Jony: Infrastruktur didn't comment about how to store official statistical data. He expressed what he likes, and what he don't. Population by ethnic group is a very important statistical data collected and published by many statistical offices and this property would be the most appropriate way to store it. Currently Wikimedia sites have to store this data in template parameter values with no possibility to share them between them. Bean49 (talk) 08:48, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

It came in my mind that there are countries where there exist laws based on this data. Bean49 (talk) 17:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

You still claim this is somehow "very important statistical data", yet you're unwilling to address my objection. If you don't have a common definition of ethnicity that is valid for all countries, and a common method for registering people, then this data is completely meaningless. Doing statistics across land borders is akin to adding apples and oranges, it is statistical nonsense. It's made worse when you don't use objective measures and instead try to use some subjective measures like group identity or race theory. I would suggest a better place for this data is the local wiki, since at least within the borders of one country, it is hopefully understood what the data represents and how it is collected. Infrastruktur (talk) 15:34, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't have to define data, I don't create data. I help to store existing relevant official demographic data to support Wikipedia articles. Bean49 (talk) 20:47, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@Infrastruktur: Would it be more acceptable if we name it population by native language? Could you help, how to store these data by the Statistics Finland (Q798557)? Some are presented in en:Languages of Finland as “Finnish is the language of the majority, 85.7% of the population in 2022. [...] Swedish is the main language of 5.2% of the population in 2022”, but there are many more native language related data. With thanks, Bean49 (talk) 09:20, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Sure, that would work well. Alternatives such as "population by country of origin" has the drawback of not counting children of immigrants, it might not also be the same as country of birth. When I look at the Statistics Finland website it is clear what they mean by country of birth, but I don't know what their precise definition of "origin" is, but I suppose it is good enough. Another alternative is to have a property that is only valid for one country (statistics bureau), in the case of 'ethnicity' data. Infrastruktur (talk) 12:53, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I updated the proposal. Bean49 (talk) 15:03, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Infrastruktur will you change your opinion? Regards, ZI Jony ^(Talk) 15:55, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

The votes were only valid for the original proposal. I don't mind the new proposal, I just hope it isn't a creative way to get around my objections and still use the ethnicity data. The only sensible way to register ethnicity data is if this was made into a Hungary-only property, in which case I wouldn't have any objections either. Infrastruktur (talk) 16:34, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

What if we put a mandatory criterion used (P1013) qualifier for population by ethnic group? Bean49 (talk) 16:57, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

On the 2021 Romanian census (Q106566382) there were two separate questions: ethnicity and native language. Published results are here. Could be two properties, but even one would be a considerable progress. Bean49 (talk) 17:03, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

'Native language' is well understood and can be used globally. What Romania considers to be ethnic groups may not be what Hungary understands to be ethnic groups. I consider people will be very tempted to try to compare such numbers globally even if that is not a valid thing to do. To avoid that risk altogether it is better to have separate properties for ethnicity per country, even if that is more work. Infrastruktur (talk) 19:26, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

 Support for property for 'population by native language'. Infrastruktur (talk) 19:56, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Bean49 (talk) 20:05, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

• @Bean49, GZWDer, ZI Jony, Arbnos, Infrastruktur:  Done as population by native language (P12712). AdamSeattle (talk) 06:29, 14 May 2024 (UTC)