Wikidata:Property proposal/date posted

date canceled

Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Transportation

   Done: date postally canceled (P9052) (Talk and documentation)

Description	date when a postal marking applied on a postage stamp or postal stationery to deface the stamp and to prevent its reuse
Data type	Point in time
Domain	Post or shipment
Allowed values	Date/times in the past (maximum precision is minutes) usualy only a date.
Allowed units	(maximum precision is in minutes) usualy only a date. Sometimes the postage stamps indicate the general time of day.
Example 1	File:S-Gravenhage Nieuwe - Uitleg briefkaart.jpg Datum:10 juni 1909 (posted) → 1909-06-11
Example 2	File:1898 circa Zander & Labisch, Berlin, AK Grußkarte Ewige Lampe, Hannover, Inhaber Julius Bockhold, Adressseite.jpg → 15 oktober 1899
Example 3	Q1397505 → 8 July 1987
Planned use	Replace the P571 property on postcard files in structured data of the Commons. Some postcards have postage information on the backside. This is a later date estimated creation date in P571. (in other words when the postcard image was taken). There is a broader use: The postal date has often a legal use. And it be used generaly for transport.

Motivatie

Many postcards in the Commons have a backside where there postage time information. Often this is specified as creation date with the (posted) remark. The posted date can be quite different and by definition of a later date, than the date the picture was taken for the postcard frontside. Handwritten letters and other items send by the post, can better use this property than the creation date. For transport generaly, this property can also be used. For example when a locomotive is sold and expedited by ship to an other country. Smiley.toerist (talk) 12:57, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

(posted) examples: search for (posted) in date

Postmark

Discussion

• I would oppose it with the current definition as it doesn't define what shipment date means. A naive observer might for example think that the date a letter is posted is the date he puts it into the post box which is not the date that's defined for example in https://www.globalnegotiator.com/international-trade/dictionary/shipment-date/. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 15:16, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

• • I agree that 'date shipment' is confusing as it is associated with ships. I reset the main english label name to 'data posted' and added the extra specification that it is the handover date to the postal service or transport compagny. To be even more precise when the postal service / transporter accepts the delivery order. (the transporter is the compagny who is reponsible for the whole delivery chain) This is the legal definition used for deadlines such as vote ballots. (the other legal date is the delivery date / has to received by xxx) The main purpose of this property is for old postcards, but it may be used for other purposes. This gives an extra choice in date properties and limits the inappropriate use of other date properties such as creation date.Smiley.toerist (talk) 10:58, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
    • If I write a post-card, there's the datetime (A) the post card is written. There's the datetime (B) when I put it into the post box. Then there's the datetime (C) where the postman removes the postcard from the post box. Then there's the datetime where the post card arrives in the post office (D) and gets officially registered (stamped). Lastly, there's the datetime (E) where the postcard gets delivered. When I order a courier to deliver a good, there's also the datetime (F) where the contract with the courier is made.

The description should be unambigious between those events. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 12:26, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

In practice only officially registered (stamped) date matters. By old postcards that is in practice nearly always the only precise date wich can be discovered and in legal terms that the one that matters. Sometimes there is is also a handwritten date in the text. If the stamp is not there or illisible, this is the one that can be used. By the way: We are talking about postcards posted at least more than 70 years ago. Its only importance is in dating the postcard so that a public domain license can be given. It does not matter if the date is a few days of. For the licence the only important date is when the picture in the front was taken. Then there is the day the postcard is published and the date it is posted. These dates can differ in many years. (Postcards can stay a long time in shops before they bougth. Some people store postcards and use them when needed and postcard publishers sometime reuse old pictures for a new edition). The only certain thing is that al these dates are before the 'date posted'. If no date posted can be determined other ways must be used to date the picture. Most of the times it is the content of the picture and other clues, but this can be very imprecise. The property can be used flexibily (see third example) by context. It does not always need an ultra precise definition as long that no confusion is posible.Smiley.toerist (talk) 13:45, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

It might be that this is the only thing that matters for postcards but there might be very well cases where the difference actually matters and where a good definition of the property can reduce future problems. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 14:09, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Its a balance: the new property wil also eliminate the confusing use of inappropiate date properties. The posible theoretical problems are compensated through better use in genaral of the date properties.Smiley.toerist (talk) 19:27, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

While there are arguments for creating a property, I don't think there are argument for creating one without a thought out definition. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 21:05, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

What do you propose for cases as File:Tour Japonaise 1909.jpg? where the date of creation is used for the date posted? P571 is very fuzzy in definition: 'date or point in time when the subject came into existence as defined' It is not even clear what the subject is: The building or the postcard? Any move of these dates is to more clear and defined properties is een improvement. Human concepts cannot always be defined precisely and there will always be some fussiness. Live with it. I am a problem solver, not a problem finder.Smiley.toerist (talk) 12:19, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Properties get primarily defined for their use in Wikidata. Our glossary does define what's meant with subject this property should also stay with the norm of refering to the subject as subject and not as item. For most properties that have both a subject item and an object item the term item is ambigious and thus we use the word subject by convention. It would be natural to expand the concept to commons in a way that it means the file File:Tour Japonaise 1909.jpg. But commons can interpret what subject means for them if they want it to mean something different.

I can very well live without this property in Wikidata. The problem of looking through the prior art of definitions of date posted and synthesising them into one that works for Wikidata is currently unsolved and this proposal is likely to stall as long as it stays unsolved. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 12:34, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

•  Support seems useful for Commons postcards. --- Jura 12:02, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
  •  Comment if a different label is preferred for Commons, maybe it's worth changing it before creation. @Smiley.toerist, Stefan Kühn, Cquoi, Adamant1, William Ellison: @ChristianKl: --- Jura 08:14, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
• @Stefan Kühn: what do you think? --- Jura 12:02, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
•  Support this is very helpful in our c:Commons:WikiProject Postcards. --sk (talk) 12:12, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
• @Albinfo, William Ellison, Rc1959, Cquoi, Adamant1: let's ask its participants to comment then. --- Jura 12:26, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
•  Support, no problem ! Cquoi (talk) 14:50, 18 December 2020 (UTC) The "date posted/Q102109830 label is most suitable. Cquoi (talk) 10:50, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
•  Support Thanks for pinging me. I would have gone with the more technical "date canceled" or "date postmarked" (probably "canceled" since it puts the emphasis on the date in the postmark stamp and allows for multiple cancel dates in cases where it's date stamped more then once in transit), but "date posted" is fine also. I'm sure the wording can be refined later if need be anyway. --Adamant1 (talk) 20:07, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
•  Support I agree with Adamant1 William Ellison (talk) 04:34, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
• @ArthurPSmith: Given that the property currently has no single proposed name it's obviously not ready. The debate about whether "date canceled" or "date postmarked" might be preferable isn't resolved as asked for by our policy. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 11:57, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
• @Smiley.toerist, Stefan Kühn, Cquoi, Adamant1, William Ellison: @Albinfo, Rc1959, Jura1: can somebody figure out what you want to call this in English then? ArthurPSmith (talk) 20:54, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

My preference would be "date canceled." Second is "date postmarked." I'd be fine with either though. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:23, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

@Adamant1: If I understand you right then some postcards have multiple dates and "date canceled" would allow for listing all the dates while "date postmarked" would only allow for one?

Could you write a one/two sentence definition for the term (that would be used as a description? ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 23:16, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Essentially. It would be cool if this could be used for things outside of postcards that are either posted multiple times like air mail covers or FDCs where they are not actually "shipped" or accepted by a postal person, but still have cancels on them. Which confining it to just "when the post or transporter accepts the delivery order" does not allow for. It doesn't work for postcards that go through multiple post offices/cancels either. Cancellation_(mail) and Postmark has a definition. Although Postmark just seems to cover when it was delivered to the postal service. Whereas, Cancellation_(mail) says it is "a postal marking applied on a postage stamp or postal stationery to deface the stamp and to prevent its reuse." Although some cancels aren't necessarily directly on the stamp. So, I don't know how good that is as a definition, but something along those lines works. --Adamant1 (talk) 02:50, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

The main purpose is for dating of postcards where the needed precision is not in days, but years. For other purposes I would use the latest date if there are several dates. If there is a legal use of the these dates (such as for postal ballots) I would use that one.Smiley.toerist (talk) 12:02, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

@Smiley.toerist: In case A I would do X, in case B I would do Y, in case C I would Z doesn't give a standard where people are going to use the property the same way and statements can be interpreted to have a specific meaning.

• Given Adamant1 suggestions I now changed the name into "date canceled" with the description "date when a postal marking applied on a postage stamp or postal stationery to deface the stamp and to prevent its reuse". This seems to be benefitial to usecases within Commons where a postcard has multiple dates and all dates can be listed.

Are there issues with defining the concept this way? ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 14:59, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

@ChristianKl: Changing the proposal to vote for "date posted" - which most of us support - to "date canceled" is not fair play. You should have rejected the first proposal in a democratic way, especially when you are an administrator ! Cquoi (talk) 08:49, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

@Cquoi: The discussion is somewhat technical and I might be missing something, but [1] doesn't actually translate the English label. --- Jura 09:19, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Hello @Jura1:, how would you translate "date posted" ? Thanks Cquoi (talk) 11:20, 23 December 2020 (UTC) I was only criticising the voting procedure. Cquoi (talk) 11:25, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Peut-être "date d'envoi" ou "date d'expédition". Je pense que la propriété sera plus aboutie si on se met d'accord qu'elle correspond aux cas d'utilisation proposés. --- Jura 11:28, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

OK @Jura1:. Cquoi (talk) 13:13, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

@Cquoi: You seem new to Wikidata property proposals. Giving your opinion on a property is not voting. Changing the name and description of a property as the discussion progresses is common practice (our policy also explicitely asks for properties labels to be polished). ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 15:03, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

@ChristianKl: I'm sorry: I admit I'm new to this. Regards Cquoi (talk) 06:57, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

As the submitter of the proposal, I agree to the change. Trying to use the property outside postal/delivery services will be problematic. There are other date properties. By a public letter (send to a receiver and the public) it is a publishing date. When a train type is shipped/transported from the builder in Belgium to Marokko Q3347648, the delivery proces can be considered part of building proces: building date. The same for File:LRT-1 ligthrail Manila vehicle being build in Bruges.jpg Q22125620. The replica Q98732913 has been to many places and transported/shipped between the location. These transport dates are implicit in qualified dates for the locations. Conclusion: I cant find any use for this property to be used for transport/shipment of data-items.Smiley.toerist (talk) 23:28, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

 Done @Smiley.toerist, Cquoi, ArthurPSmith, ChristianKl: @William Ellison, Rc1959, Adamant1: --- Jura 10:35, 12 January 2021 (UTC)